Harry Litman [00:00:06]: Welcome to a special Talking Feds: 1-on-1. I'm Harry Litman. We continue in our series of interviews with political leaders who have been prominently mentioned as possible vise presidential candidates for presumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden.
Today, we are speaking with Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan. Governor Whitmer has come to national attention for her stewardship of the state during the virus. Michigan has been especially hard hit and wittmer responded with a strict shelter in place order, which she is now beginning to ease in selected respects. President Trump has singled her out for schoolboy Twitter taunts.
"That woman from Michigan" and "Half-Whitmer" and Michigan has seen well-publicized demonstrations, including by gun rights advocates toting assault weapons at the Capitol. And lately, she has drawn personal threats of violence from anonymous Facebook groups. But wittmer has remained steady and engaged, and her support has stayed strong among both parties within the state, which, of course, is about as battleground as they come in terms of the upcoming presidential election. Her approval rating for handling the virus is over 70 percent. Wittmer has had a fairly stratospheric rise to the governor's office. She was the Senate's first female Democratic leader from 2011 to 2015. When she ran for governor in 2018, emphasizing infrastructure issues, she won the Democratic primary in all 83 Michigan counties, then trounced her Republican opponent by nearly 10 points. This, notwithstanding being a self-identified progressive Democrat in a state on the knife's edge of division between the parties. The Democratic Party chose her to give the response to President Trump's 2020 State of the Union address, which she delivered from the public high school that two of her daughters attend in East Lansing.
She earned high marks, quoting Jen Rubin of The Washington Post. Whitmer, "succeeded in part because she seemed so normal, so decent, and because she focused on her own life experience. The struggles of a middle class mom who, unlike a clueless real estate mogul, understands voters lives." Gretchen Whitmer, the 49th governor of Michigan, thank you so much for joining. Talking feds one on one.
Governer Whitmar [00:02:39]: Glad to be with you.
Harry Litman [00:02:40]: Well, we've enough to talk about for five of these conversations. And of course, we want to move quickly to the virus. But you've burst on the national scene like a supernova in these last few months. And I want to touch briefly on your background. You had two parents who worked in government. You were elected to state legislature before you were 30. Did you grow up thinking that you would aim for electoral politics?
Governer Whitmar [00:03:03]: God, no. I actually when I was younger, I thought that I was going to be a journalist, a sports broadcaster is what my initial goal in life was.
Harry Litman [00:03:13]: That was my first job wass Sports journalist.
Governer Whitmar [00:03:15]: I actually went to Michigan State University right down the street from the state capital and was working both at the Michigan State, AFLCIO and the football office at Michigan State. And I quickly kind of fell in love with public policy.
Harry Litman [00:03:30]: Wow. We fast forward through so much and such a quick ascent. But to the actual election of 2018, you won by 10 points in a state that is at best evenly divided. You're only the third Democratic governor in over 60 years. There has been monolithic Republican control of the Senate of Michigan forever, at least over 30 years. And yet you're a self-described progressive, but you ran a very sort of down to earth campaign based on infrastructure. "Fix the damn roads" as it became your watchword. But what's your sense of how you were able to appeal across party lines in such a kind of prototypically divided state?
Governer Whitmar [00:04:15]: Well, I think that in 2018, as in every other election, Michigan voters simply wanted someone who can fix the problems that we're confronting, who shows up and listens to people. I think that that's something that was really important. I went into all 83 counties in Michigan and engaged with folks. I ran for two years. It was a long, grueling campaign. But when you do that, it centers you on the things that really matter. And and that's what voters are looking for. When I talked about fixing the damn roads, it wasn't something that we poll tested. It was something that I knew would resonate because that's how everyone in Michigan talks about our roads. It's a frustration that we all have and that unites us. And I've had people literally cross the street to give me a high five because they said, "fix the damn roads." And I know they cross the aisle, too, because of it.
Harry Litman [00:05:04]: I think you actually won for the first time ever, all of those 83 counties as a Democrat for the nomination. Well, let's go now to the big problem that nobody anticipated and everybody wants to fix. But, you know, they don't teach pandemic control at governors school. So when and how did you realize that you were looking at a pandemic of unprecedented proportion?
Governer Whitmar [00:05:29]: We were watching it happen around the world, but I don't think that it became very clear how serious this was going to be in the United States and how underprepared we were as a country until I think February. And it was in a meeting with the governors across the country and the White House, a phone call meeting, that it was incredibly sobering when the White House said, "You're going to have to go out and find all these supplies on your own." And Michigan was already have an exponential growth during that call. But we had assumed, I think, like a lot of people, that there was going to be a national strategy, that there'd be national procurement. That we wouldn't know that and ninety five masks, we were gonna have to set up a global procurement office in our state emergency operations center until that moment. It kind of hit me like a ton of bricks that we have to create this and stand this up and start trying to procure all of these items that we already weren't really dire need of. And and it just kind of changed everything in that moment for me, understanding how ill prepared we were as a country and what we were going to have to do at the state level to try to get the things we need.
Harry Litman [00:06:35]: And of course, the federal vacuum, you know, has continued basically even to this week where the President has said, "All of the states are basically on their own. On the other hand, I take all credit and no blame." All right. So you're there without a playbook. I mean, did you put together a playbook? Did you just, you know, begin to make it up as you went along? Whom did you convene? What do you do?
Governer Whitmar [00:06:57]: Yeah. So one of the things about a global pandemic is every one of the country is confronting it. We're confronting it at different rates. You know, Michigan was on the front end and really saw the exponential growth a lot earlier than other states. And it's it's had a devastating impact on our state. We are the tenth most populated state in the country, and yet we still have the third highest number of deaths. And we have had that sad distinction for weeks on end. I think in this moment it was really important to convene the smartest minds in this state, and that means people at the University of Michigan. People at our great research universities like MSU. The chief medical executive, so that we were really understanding the disease, understanding how little we knew about it. The heads of all of our hospitals, so that we understood the pressure that was already happening on our front line, but also in this moment has been an opportunity to share knowledge with my fellow governors and learn from my fellow governors as well. I've got a great relationship with someone like Mike DeWine, Republican in Ohio, and J.B. Pritzker, a Democrat in Illinois. My neighbors who have got access to great resources as well. And so sharing our thought processes, our data, our thoughts about where we want to be headed has been really helpful as well.
Harry Litman [00:08:15]: I mean, it seems so sensible, but not every governor has done it. But your basic enclave of eight or so states of different parties, I think in the Midwest seems to have been key to the decisions you've made. As you say, tenth most populous, third highest death rate. And you were known initially for a pretty wide ranging shelter in place order year. There's some active consideration of some relaxations, but I wonder if you can give us just an example of a sort of borderline call, a tough call you felt you had to make as governor that could have gone either way about what would be essential or what would close how you actually made the final call.
Governer Whitmar [00:08:54]: The earliest first one was pulling our kids out of schools. We were one of the first states to do that. And immediately I got phone calls from my colleagues like J.B. Pritzker called and said, "What's your thought process? What do you know? What are you concerned about?" And at the time, I'll say that a lot of experts were saying, "Oh, kids are immune. You don't have to worry about kids in schools." And here in Michigan, they were saying, "You know what? Kids come in and out of households all across the state, they're convening. They're congregating. We need to do this." And so there was mixed advice from the medical community on that one. And in retrospect, I'm absolutely confident it was the right thing to do. But in the moment, it was difficult because of all of this conflicting information. I mean, with a novel virus, we're learning every single day. That was a hard one. But looking back on it, I know is the right one. When we started the stay home order, though, it was really aggressive, as you mentioned. And I think about the fact that I told people they shouldn't be traveling to their second homes. There are a lot of people that really unhappy about that. But we know that just the act of traveling means you're stopping at a gas station and touching a pump where we don't know how long Coronavirus lasts on that pump handle. And the more people that are out and about, the more likely we bring spread into areas that might not have COVID-19 already. And so this was one part of the order and it got a lot of strong reaction. We did that for a while. We've released that piece of it. But I really think that that contributed to our ability to push this curve down. And I think it was the right decision. But, you know, I've taken a lot of heat about it.
Harry Litman [00:10:27]: Yeah. You know, at the time, the virus was strongest on the coast. But as you say, it especially hit Detroit hard. Well, it's especially hit, as you've highlighted, and very few governors have different communities very hard. And you have noted that Michigan itself, which has 14 percent African-American population, 40 percent of the deaths, have to date been of African Americans. Give us your thinking, first about why it's the case and what possibly can be done about it. You know, all these things, of course, you're juggling swords as the house is on fire. And yet you've made a point of focusing on this broader problem.
Governer Whitmar [00:11:10]: Well, Michigan was one of the first states to release racial data associated with the testing.
Harry Litman [00:11:15]: Was that your decision?
Governer Whitmar [00:11:16]: You know what? Our chief medical executive made that decision. And you know what? She's an African-American woman. And I think that us sharing that information, even though was incomplete early on, because all those questions weren't being asked when we were just starting into this crisis. But we thought even though it was incomplete, let's release it and let's keep releasing it. Make sure that every test that we take, we do have complete information on. Louisiana did as well. And I believe Illinois, too. And it became very clear that there was a incredibly disparate impact on communities of color. This isn't that great a surprise for anyone who's been paying attention, because we know that for a black woman in America to give birth is three times deadlier than a white woman. We know that there is implicit bias, that there is different access to health care. And so all of these pieces are exacerbating what our experiences with COVID-19. And it's a reality. And that's why I think it's important that we highlight it. It's important that we analyze it and that we come out of this with a strategy to eliminate these inherent disparate aspects of our health care system in and of life in America.
Harry Litman [00:12:21]: And have you do you have any such strategy yet as far as the virus is concerned? How is it affecting your kind of day to day decisions, if at all?
Governer Whitmar [00:12:29]: Well, I've created a. Coronavirus Task Force on Racial Disparities, it is chaired by my lieutenant governor, our first African-American lieutenant governor in Michigan history. Our chief medical executive, Ginny Khaldoun, is on it as well, who I was just talking about. We think that it's important to bring leaders who can analyze this and and help inform decisions now, but also help inform policy as we move forward on the other side of COVID-19.
Harry Litman [00:12:56]: You know, one more initiative that you've managed to do, even while trying to put out the raging fires has been your frontline program, which seems unique to me. Just tell us in a sentence or two how that came to be and what it does.
Govrner Whitmar [00:13:10]: Sure. We call it Futures For Frontliners. It is modeled after the G.I. Bill, after World War Two. We thought that this is a good way for us to acknowledge and support and show our gratitude for the people that continue to put their own lives at risk while they're taking care of others. And so this is an opportunity for post-secondary certificate or degree program that the state will make available to everyone who stayed on the front line during COVID-19.
Harry Litman [00:13:35]: Remarkable. But now but, Governor, I mean, at least to judge by the national news and you probably get this in many of your interviews, nobody has had to manage her state in the face of such intense partisanship. You've been sued more than once by the Republican legislature. Maybe even this week, you've had protesters with assault rifles marching on the capital. I wrote about that yesterday and people were really stunned and appalled at the image of it. And of course, you've somehow attracted this special ire and and trashtalk of the President of the United States, who's taken to calling you the woman in Michigan. Did this arch partisanship, even where the virus is concerned, surprise you since, as you say, you've been working with Republican and Democratic governors all along the way? And is it making your job harder? And I guess I'll throw one more thing and it which is how do you ignore it if you do?
Gretchen Whitmar [00:14:32]: It does surprise me. You know, the enemy is not one another, the enemies of virus. And it doesn't discriminate based on party line or state line. We all have to acknowledge that our best ability to combat this enemy is if we stick together and put everything we have together against COVID-19. And so to see it become so partisan is really disheartening. And I think in this country, one of the great things is we should all be able to speak our truth, to share it widely and to learn from it. Early on, I made the observation that I thought we needed a national strategy. And I think when I made that observation, it got me right in the crosshairs of the White House. And, you know, it wasn't being blatantly critical, but it's common sense that if you've got 50 states and a virus that doesn't observe state line, a national strategy is really important. When we all need the same equipment, a national strategy is really important. And so that's the frustration that I had, is that we were having exponential growth and we were running out of N-95 masks in the early days. We had hospitals that were at capacity. That's why we had to take the aggressive steps that we did in Michigan, because we didn't have all of the traditional supports that you would hope and expect to need in a crisis like this. I was just trying to make the case for Michigan and get the help that we need here. I was doing my job and it got me on the wrong side of the White House and put me into the national spotlight. And I wasn't asking for that. I wasn't looking for that. And frankly, when it happened, I started losing more sleep of it because all I need is help here in Michigan. I'm just trying to save the lives of the people of the state and do everything I can in that prospect. I don't care if people voted for me or against me. If they live in Michigan, I'm going to do everything I can to save their lives.
Harry Litman [00:16:19]: And that's sort of the broader point here. You know, a lot of people, I'm among them spend a lot of time criticizing the erratic mess and politically driven response from the White House. But in a different setting, you if you're in a war of words with the President of the United States, you have that war of words. But he's demonstrated a sort of and this isn't to trash him today. It's really to focus on your position. But he's demonstrated sufficient pettiness that I imagine you have to worry that even if criticism is unwarranted, if you respond, it actually could have a bottom line impact on Michiganders.
Governer Whitmar [00:16:57]: Yes. Yeah. There's no question. And the last thing I want to do is escalate it. And so we've really worked very well. You know, I found the Vice President to be accessible and always cordial and helpful. We've worked incredibly well with FEMA. My state emergency operations center has got someone from FEMA embedded. We have got a great working relationship. The vast majority of people that we've interface with at the federal government have really been impressive and helpful. And I think focused on doing what we're all trying to do here in Michigan. And so the last thing I want to do is escalate anything. And that's why I've continually just said, "Listen, we are not one another's enemy, the enemies of virus, and we've all got to put every ounce of energy and resource we have in to combating it so we save lives and shorten the amount of time that we're gonna go through this incredible economic distress."
Harry Litman [00:17:44]: And you continue to have impressively strong support within the state, even as you're having to have these different wars of words with the President and the legislature. But I think my sense is from the protests and just around the country, there's a greater impatience now of Michiganders for ending the restraints. And, you know, you may have hard calls ahead of you to try to minimize the second wave, which surely is coming in one form or another. What can you do now to sort of prepare citizens who have really kind of had enough and think worst at the end of the road if you determine we're not? How are you going to prepare them for more challenging measures if you're forced to re-impose them?
Governer Whitmar [00:18:25]: So yesterday I showed our sixth phase strategy for reengaging our economy safely. I've shown that we are right now in the flattening phase, which is good. I mean, it's way better than when we were in exponential growth or in communities spread. We're now in flattening. So we're in the Phase 3. There's light at the end of the tunnel. There are additional steps we will take to reengage our economy. But each of those steps depends on our ability to address, you know, a spike in COVID somewhere in our state. So it depends on our ability to test it and it depends on our ability to trace depends on our hospital capacity and our PPE. But it also depends on what people do. You know, if they're going to wear masks and continue to observe best practices, staying six feet away from others when they're out in public. Washing your hands. Not going out unless you need to. All of these sacrifices we've made in the last eight weeks have paid off and we have dropped our curve dramatically and saved a lot of lives in the process. Our ability to take the next steps depend on a sustained, disciplined and continuing to observe these best practices. Every single one of us wants to take that next step and it is dependent on every single one of us doing our part so we can.
Harry Litman [00:19:38]: Seguing and out of the virus for just a few final questions. It has—It seems like it has to be completely consuming. And you ran for governor with a lot of important goals, not just infrastructure, but water, Flint problem, etc., which is not entirely over. Have you had to set those entirely to the side and is a 24/7 virus for you for now?
Governer Whitmar [00:20:00]: Well, it has been for a number of weeks, but you know, we've still got to make Michigan work on all of these other fronts. And so I've got wonderful directors in my departments who are continuing to do their job and I'm monitoring everything that's happening. We still are trying to work through a budget and with the legislature that, you know, is bad and challenging. And certainly we're gonna have big budget problems that we're going to make a lot of tough decisions. We're hoping that Congress takes this next supplemental seriously and gives the states the kind of flexibility and support we need. And so, you know, we are continuing to still do the other parts of our jobs, which are completely consuming. But COVID-19, has has taken a lot of additional effort and energy and focus. So we're doing both.
Harry Litman [00:20:46]: What are your days like? Whom do you talk to? You know, you have all this responsibility while you're sort of sheltered in place yourself. You you get up and what's the day like?
Governer Whitmar [00:20:55]: So. Well, every day of the week, I get up at 5:00 a.m. It's actually my favorite time because no one is harassing me at 5:00 a.m. I can drink my coffee, check out all the news. I think one of the challenging things is, you know, I am at home the vast majority of the time. I'll go down to the emergency operations center for a press conference every once while when there's a federal dignitary in town that I need to go meet with, I will go do that. But by and large, I'm here at the house and I go from call to call to call. I whether it's talking with my cabinet--.
Harry Litman [00:21:25]: On the phone or Zoom?
Governer Whitmar [00:21:27]: Both. We have Microsoft teams, I use Zoom sometimes I use just conference call other times. It's one device or the other. You know, I think that we've been able to stay connected and it's been really important. And I don't know how we would navigate this without all this great technology.
Harry Litman [00:21:44]: Just a quick question about the vice presidential speculation, which I think has just come your way with all your success and nothing you've campaigned for. But it seems like it's right now going on behind closed doors, no interviews. Do you get the sense that it's happening? Have you been asked to submit any paperwork, for example?
Governer Whitmar [00:22:02]: I've not been asked to submit any paperwork, no. And I'm sure that things are progressing. That's what has to happen. The world can't stop. And we have to continue thinking about these important elections. But at this point, you know, every ounce of energy I have is going into doing precisely what I was elected to do. And this is where I've worked so hard to be. I'm even on the hardest days, awfully grateful to be the governor of Michigan.
Harry Litman [00:22:28] Governor Whitmer, thanks so much for your time. And we. Wish you continued success in your incredibly important and challenging work. Thank you. Stay safe. You, too. And thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this special Talking Feds: 1-on-1. Stay tuned for more one on one interviews with prospective vice presidential nominees in the coming weeks. Talking Feds is a production of the LLC. I'm Harry Litman See you next time.
